The 100 Year Life with Dr Tom Mathar

>> David Lloyd: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another one in our, series of financial wellbeing podcasts, where, three well meaning chaps sit around and witter on about money, sometimes with great intent, sometimes just wittering on for the sake of wittering on. But we always hope to some purpose in what we do. I’d like. My name’s David Lloyd. I’m a broadcaster, writer, actor, general, man about town. and I’m joined today by the guy that first came up with the notion, of the financial wellbeing podcast, Chris Burnt.

>> Chris Budd: I thought you’d say the person who first came up with the notion of financial well being.

>> David Lloyd: you kind of were, weren’t you?

>> Chris Budd: In a way, no. Lots of people have been talking about money and happiness for a long, long time. I guess if I’m going to claim anything, I’m the guy that’s putting it, applying what the research is telling us about happiness and applying it to the financial planning process. I might just try and claim that one, but I suspect there’ll be a few other people who claim that as well.

>> David Lloyd: And how many books have you written about this interesting topic, Chris?

>> Chris Budd: Well, two books. I was just thinking on the dog walk this morning about a possible idea for a third financial wellbeing book, but that’s embryonic, to say the very least. So, the original financial wellbeing book, recently revised and updated, and then last year, the four cornerstones of financial wellbeing, if anybody’s wondering what the difference is, the first one is designed to help people make their own financial plan, but crucially, one that will make them happier, not just wealthier. The second one, the four cornerstones, is a much deeper dive into the theory and philosophy and psychology behind, the whole idea of financial wellbeing.

>> Producer Tommo: And we also know that the reprint of, of the original book is out there in airports near you. Get yourself to an airport, wh Smith, and it’s there proudly for you to buy ready for your holiday.

>> David Lloyd: That’s, exciting.

Tom Morris, director and charter financial, supports this podcast

Now, that third, voice you heard in our triumvirate of trivia was, Tom Morris. Tell us a bit about yourself, Tom.

>> Producer Tommo: Yep. Tom Morris, director and charter financial. You’ll know this now, listeners, if you listen to this enough, charter financial planner of, asian finance, who kindly support this podcast and have done since its start in 2016. So, yeah, I’m always keen to make sure that, our sponsor, ah, and supporter is suitably, shouted about. So that’s me. I’ve got other things that I’m interested in, but that’s all that’s really relevant right now.

>> David Lloyd: Yeah, indeed. So thanks very much for those introductions. What are we talking about today, Chris?

Doctor Tom Mathar heads the Centre for Behavioural Research

>> Chris Budd: So, last in this, episode, we heard about the longest living people in the world. Areas, with the highest number of centre generians, people who live into 100. we’re going to follow that theme a little bit because we’re going to have an interview, listening to a chat I have with Doctor Tom Mathar. Now, Doctor Tom, heads the Centre for Behavioural Research with Aegon, who have been a massive supporter of the institute for Financial Wellbeing. I would go as far as to say without agonising the IFW wouldn’t exist and be doing its amazing work. So, and doctor Tom has been central to that and he’s a fabulous guy. lovely, lovely bloke, but also exceptionally knowledgeable.

>> David Lloyd: Actually, I have a feeling you might have mentioned him in passing on the podcast before he rings the bell with me.

>> Producer Tommo: I can’t believe he’s been on before. I can’t believe it’s taken us this time to get him on. He’s brilliant. He’s brilliant. Yeah.

>> David Lloyd: well, I look forward to that there.

Tom Morris gives the eager listeners advice on how they can save money

But before we do that, obviously we need a. This episode’s tight ask Tom o tip, where Tom Morris gives the eager listeners advice on how they can save money. Before we move on to the guru himself. I’ve got one of my own. It’s fairly specific, this one.

>> Chris Budd: Is it just buy tickets for Bristol city?

>> David Lloyd: No, I just. I never buy tickets for Bristol city. I save myself for fortune. there’s, a whole story that goes with that, which I can’t repeat on our. Ask me another time. so this is a very specific tip.

Government nationalised the retail of strong alcohol in Norway, reducing problem drinking

Okay. I’ve recently come back from an extremely enjoyable holiday in Norway. I don’t know if anybody’s ever been to Norway, but it’s a really beautiful country, vast country, with only four and a half million people living it because of their sensible investment of their North Sea oil money in the sovereign wealth fund. It’s a very, prosperous society where people pay high taxes, however, get very well looked after by the state. The one problem that they have in Norway over the years that’s manifested itself, and I suspect it’s one we’re building up for here, is a problem of alcohol abuse. and they had a serious problem with alcohol in Norway, and so the government decided some years ago to step in and they basically nationalised the retail of strong alcohol. So you can buy beers up to 4.5% the supermarket.

But beyond that, if you want to buy a bottle of spirits or a bottle of wine or whatever, you have to go to what they call a vinonopolet. Very good. Which is basically a state run off licence, which is the only place you can go. And that in itself, limits the amount of drinking because people, and they stop selling at 06:00 and they don’t start selling until 01:00 and they’re closed on Sundays, pretty much like it used to be in this country 30 or 40 years ago, before alcohol sales were liberalised. It’s made a massive beneficial, effect on the amount of problem drinking in Norway. It exists as a problem, but it’s gone down as a result of that.

Go to Norway on holiday and buy wine on duty free at airport

Ah, however, I’m slightly digressing here to give you the background, because, my TightAssTommo tip is, if you’re going to Norway on holiday, how do you go about spending the quite exceptionally large amounts of money that they charge you for a bottle of wine in these mop? Because they also tax them quite highly as well? Well, the answer is, and it’s a fairly obvious one, but it’s well worth doing, is go to the duty free shop at, ah, the airport when you arrive. Oslo airport, we flew into now, you are restricted the amount that you can buy. I think it’s four bottles of wine and eight cans of beer or something like that.

But actually, if you do that and buy your booze there and take it to your Airbnb, which is what we did, and there were enough adults in the party to be able to, you know, get enough to keep us going for the rest of the week, really. We saved ourselves a fortune on money they otherwise would have spent on, subsidising the already very wealthy Norwegian tax fund.

>> Chris Budd: So just to recap, your TightAssTommo tip is go to Norway on holiday and buy wine on the duty free.

>> David Lloyd: Yeah, that’s it. Yeah.

>> Chris Budd: I remember I gave a tip about. About, batch cooking and using chinese takeaway and, receptors, little trays, and Tommy. Tommy took the mickey out of me. So you just got to buy chinese takeaways to be able to do this. I think a TightAssTommo tip that starts off with having to go to Norway. Flawed.

>> David Lloyd: That part of the tip is not about saving money at all. But if you’re forced to go to Norway and you think you might want a glass of wine while you’re there buying the duty free at Oslo airport, that’s not the case.

>> Producer Tommo: That’s good. that passes, that passes. The test for me. That passes the test for me.

>> David Lloyd: What have you got for us?

>> Producer Tommo: I’m the arbiter of all of this. so, yeah, I guess you want mine now, David, don’t you?

>> David Lloyd: Please.

>> Producer Tommo: This m was a cracker. This was this week. So my tip is to volunteer to take home the leftover pizzas. So there’s a story behind this and I’ll give some context. This week. On Monday, we had a big ovation team meeting day. This is where we talk about how the business is doing, big strategy, talk about how we’re going to improve it, make it better, what’s working, how are we going to meet our objectives, really involve the team in trying to shape that. Anyway, at lunchtime we ordered some pizzas in, scoff. I had quite a lot of it, but we over ordered massively. And you know what? People were getting home in various ways and I haven’t really got the space to take it back, etcetera.

So I said, no, don’t worry, I’ll take it back or I’ll find a bin for it. So two whole pizzas came back with me and I had a fantastic lunch on Tuesday, I had a fantastic lunch on Wednesday, and I may have had a few bites on Thursday, but by that point it was really on the edge of whether I should have been eating it or nothing. But there’s my tip. Volunteer to take over the leftover scraps. it was. God, you remember the film trading places?

>> Chris Budd: Yes.

>> Producer Tommo: Where he goes in there and he goes in with his Santa’s cotton. He puts the salmon in his pockets. This has those vibes, doesn’t it?

>> David Lloyd: I have to say that’s just a step away from rooting through waste bins, isn’t it?

>> Producer Tommo: A little bit. I’m like the ovation raccoon, you know, going in and going in and snuffling trash cans and all of that sort of stuff like they do in North America. Anyway, there you go, there’s my tip.

>> David Lloyd: Excellent. Thank you as ever for your wisdom and your tightness.

Doctor Thomas Mather is the head of Aegon’s behavioural research department

Right, Chris, back to the main event. Just remind us again who this interview is with.

> Chris Budd: So, doctor Thomas Mather or Doctor Tom, who is the head of the Centre for Behavioural Research, which is a department within Aegon, who are a massive european pension, provider and other types of products, financial services company. And he does research, he talks, he mentions, for example, the Institute for financial well being. Our conference, which at the time I interviewed him was a week or so away. And he’s got loads of fascinating things.

He and I and somebody were also well known to this podcast, Neil Beige. the three of us sometimes get on a Zoom call to just discuss a little point and then an hour later, which is still going because it’s such interesting. So I had a chat with him, particularly about an angle that he’s really interested at the moment, which is the hundred year life and what this means about for our finances. So enough for me.

Let’s hear from doctor Tom, uh, of agonist

Let’s hear from doctor Tom, of agonist. Doctor Tom. Am I allowed to call you doctor Tom? Is that in a suitable sobriquet?

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Is that right? That’s perfectly fine. That’s what I’m used to be calling. Yeah.

>> Chris Budd: Thank you doctor T. Doctor Tom, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast, mate.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Thank you, thank you for having me. It’s a joy to be here.

Egon supports financial wellbeing cause and the institute

Thank you.

>> Chris Budd: And a little, first of all, thank you from me because you’ve done and egon as a whole, but you particularly did masses to support the whole financial wellbeing cause and the institute, so personal. Thank you from me for all that you’ve been doing over the last few years.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Thank you. And of course, well we are ah, very much enjoying, you know, working with the institute and of course benefiting from that as well. So it’s very much a joint, you know, effort here.

>> Chris Budd: That’s how life works, isn’t it? Let’s be honest.

Agon is talking about financial wellbeing because we are living longer

So look, I can’t believe we haven’t had you on this before. It’s absolutely bonkers because you and I have talked about so many things about what is but you’ve got a particular thing you wanted to get out. And it’s a really interesting idea, about financial wellbeing in the long term. So tell me what it is you’ve got on your mind.

> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, sure. So it’s a few thoughts on why we are actually talking about financial wellbeing. I mean the term is now of course established. Many many people are talking about it, many organisations are talking about it for different reasons. I think it is perhaps worth taking a step back and reflecting why we certainly at Agon, but perhaps also some other perhaps planners, financial planners, life planners, however you want to call them, are talking about financial wellbeing. I think the reason is to do with a very contemporary problem that we are having and that is the fact that we are living longer, healthier lives. So longevity is a real thing.

It is something that many more people are experiencing. Not everyone of course, but as a group we are experiencing this at the same time. Things happening like the withdrawal of the state. You are much more on your own, db. Pensions and welfare in general was more generous a couple of decades ago. Another thing we have is of course the rise of AI, the rise of robotization, the pace at which working environments change is faster than ever before. So I think these are some backdrops that are happening at the moment, that make life planning and financial planning much more difficult nowadays for people than 2030 years ago or so. And that’s I think why we talk about financial wellbeing. Sorry.

>> Chris Budd: Yeah, no, no I didn’t mean to interpret it. But it’s not just more difficult. The stakes are so much higher as well, aren’t they? to state something that’s so obvious and yet I think it’s so obvious that we could miss it. Our lives are longer, but all of the extra time is non income producing time.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Yes, yeah, exactly. And the simple fact is that who lives longer needs more money. Yeah, I mean that’s a pretty basic it’s a really basic maths problem. you can live on a very modest income, say I don’t know, 20,000 pounds a year, but if you live 20 years longer then you know, 20,000 times 20, you know, money is going.

>> Chris Budd: To run out sooner, isn’t it? Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: So it’s a really, it’s a really simple problem and of course we all know this kind of. Right. We all are aware of the problem. Yeah. Or the opportunity or the challenge. I mean it’s not necessarily, you know, a bad thing. In fact you know, it’s a it’s a, it’s a great thing that we live that long. But of course it is a challenge. It’s a, it’s a challenge for economies as a whole. It’s a challenge for individuals who are needing to fund their longer lives. I think this is something that will resonate with many people that making those trade offs between financial security now versus financial security in the future what makes me happy now, what makes me happy in the future or what do I need to live a happy fulfilled life in the future, et cetera. That is a really, really hard trade offs, really hard ponderings that people have got to make. And I think that is one of the reasons why we are talking about financial wellbeing because this is a problem of our time.

>> Chris Budd: Listen lets come back to those trade offs and you can tell us a bit about what they are and what you might do about making decisions.

You first mentioned difficulty of connecting with future selves on our podcast

But theres a little diversion I want to take here because you were the guy that first mentioned the difficulty of connecting with our future selves. You mentioned this phrase future self to me for about 18 months before the penny finally dropped with me and I went and bought Hal Herschel’s book and we had him on the podcast. So that’s massive in this space, isn’t it? The difficulty connecting with that future person.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Yes, yeah, yeah absolutely. So I wouldn’t say I’m the first one who’s done that work. We have of course done a lot of work and of course this is where we are developing a tool, with academic partners and funded by the UK government. So we are doing a lot in that particular space. But yeah, this is going back to research that we’ve done ah, at our centre for Behavioural Research that shows that people who have a long term mental time horizon, they make completely different decisions for themselves. Not only long term related financial decisions, but also in relation to debt, in relation to having emergency savings, insurance products they possess, et cetera.

>> Chris Budd: So yeah, that’s just

Long term mental time horizon is a connection to your future self

Explain that term. Long term mental time horizon. What does that mean?

> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, so a long term mental time horizon. I mean of course define long term, but you know what I will say perhaps in our industry and financial planning and financial advice, and investments in general, we are quite used to be thinking long term. We are used to be explaining that the reasons for why we should invest is because of how compound interest works and why it is worthwhile sitting out market volatility, et cetera. Because in the long term, dot, dot, dot. And I think that is a real challenge, that argument is a real challenge for many people because they are even struggling to be thinking about what’s up in six months time or twelve months time. but never mind ten years, 15 years, 20 years.

That’s not to say that this is the objective definition of what long term is, but typically that’s oftentimes the time horizons that we are thinking of. What I mean, perhaps less financially. Put, when I speak about long term mental time horizon is a strong and meaningful, intrinsically motivated connection to the needs and wants of your future self. Yeah. So of the future me, of yourself in a few years time.

> Chris Budd: Yeah, I can remember in my twenties when I first arranged a holiday with my partner, who’s now my wife Susie and my girlfriend. And we came back from a holiday and then she said where should we organise for next year? And I thought, I don’t know. I don’t think about next summer. Let’s think about that in March. Do we all have different time horizons then?

> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, I think, It comes naturally to different people. To, you know, to some people it probably comes more naturally. I would include myself and, you know, it comes more naturally to be thinking long term. For others, it comes more naturally to think short term for others. It comes more naturally to think about past events than about anything future related. So, you know, there is a bit of variation. I mean, I guess you mentioned Hal Hirschfeld.

The thing that he has shown is that when he slotted these, study participants under the MRI scanner, that, most people when they think about their future, self, a version of themselves in the future, they activate a part of the brain that thinks of strangers. Yeah. So, I think this is neuroscientifically speaking, perhaps it is m more common, to be a short term thinker rather than a long term thinker.

>> Chris Budd: we all struggle to connect with our future self, some worse than others that we.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And, you know, I would say that, and this is why it is so hard. Just thinking about the needs of your future self isn’t the solution either, because the fact is, of course, we’re not just living in the future, we’re also living today. Ah.

William: We make trade off all the time. So describe what you mean by a trade off

> Chris Budd: that brings us back to the trade offs that you were talking about. So describe what you mean by a trade off.

> Dr Tom Mathar: So a trade off could be things like, do I accept a higher paying job at expense for less? work life balance for less life in that work life balance because it pays more. So it may be, paying more, I may benefit from it long term. So it’s a classic sort of delayed gratification argument, at expense of the present day. That’s a trade off. Another trade off could be, I don’t know. Am I, working full time and send the children to nursery, even though much of the salary I earn a goes to paying the fees for the nursery? That’s another trade off.

Another trade off. Do I, forego a salary? Do I quit my job to re educate, and learn, a new profession, so as to be able to earn an income in another industry for the next 510, 15 years or so? so again, that’s another trade off. I think this is just a few examples of trade offs that we’ve got to make all the time. At the heart of those trade offs is what makes me happy now? What makes me happy in the future? What, gives me financial security now versus what gives me financial security in the future.

>> Chris Budd: William yeah, well come back to that phrase, financial security. But im just thinking you put me in mind of one of our very first guests we had on the podcast was a force of nature lady called Maria Medeva, whos a professor, but she had written a book about debt because her husband had, unbeknownst to her, racked up about 100,000 pounds in credit card debt. And she, yeah, exactly. Didn’t want to be in that house when she found that out. But she, paid that off over something like a year or two years. It was absolutely incredible. Her story was so amazing. But one of the things that always struck me was the smallest amount that she used to pay off the debt was something like two pounds 50 pence.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Wow.

>> Chris Budd: Now that’s a trade off. So a trade off can be as small as just deciding not to have. I don’t use the cliche of the cup of coffee, but it could be buying a cup of coffee or buying a sandwich or making one at home run by one at work. These are trade offs as well. It does go down to that small, doesn’t it?

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Yes, absolutely. Yeah, we make those trade offs all the time. whenever we are, in every month that we are earning and spending money, we’re making those trade offs.

>> Chris Budd: Financial security or financial independence or whatever phrase we want to use.

Youve been talking a lot about the difference between financial independence and financial wellbeing

I know that youve been asked a lot and youve been talking a lot about the difference between financial independence and financial wellbeing, so take us in that direction.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, so I mean, this really came about because on the back of the book that I published on financial wellbeing, just in the german market, but there was that conversation in English here. So im saying, unfortunately its not available, for the english speaking world. On the back of that publication, there were a few, broadcasters, newspapers, et cetera, that were asking me about that particular term. Is financial well being not exactly the same as financial independence, is it not just another word for the same thing? And I wasn’t actually prepared for that particular question. I hadn’t looked that much into financial, independence. I hadn’t spent much time on distinguishing financial wellbeing between financial independence.

But I think there are some crucial differences just from like when you look at quick word search on Amazon, for example, on the type of book titles that come up and that’s like tonnes, really. There’s so many book titles on that particular subject of financial independence. What I think the difference is financial independence is often more like, a goal. A goal of where you earn, where you have enough wealth, where you earn enough income to pay off living expenses, for the rest of your life and without having to depend on anything or anyone else. So that is the goal.

When I would say financial wellbeing is perhaps less of a goal, it’s perhaps more like an ambition, like a permanent ambition to earn, spend and manage money in line with what makes you happy. It is, perhaps, a more holistic approach that considers habits, that considers mindset, that considers attitudes, that considers, beliefs, that considers all sorts of things of the behavioural and psychological world. When financial independence is much more focused on wealth accumulation, so as to live a good. There’s the sort of naive assumption that all problems are sorted. if only I was financially independent. Yeah, I mean, this is perhaps like a bit crudely put, but you get it.

> Chris Budd: Yeah, totally. Totally. I absolutely love that. I would put one extra framing, if I may, which is that financial independence is an outcome. Financial well being is an area of study. It’s not. Some people interpret financial well being as being. That means I’m happy with my money. Well, happiness and money are linked, but it’s like, a science, it’s an art. It’s a study of an area of the relationship between money and happiness. Whereas, financial security is an outcome of managing your money. Well, yes, that’s my.

> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, exactly. Financial security, by the way, I think I have a much more everyday or common man sort of understanding of which is just, you know, you’re not. You’re not in financial trouble, let’s, put it that way. So when financial independence. And this is purely. This isn’t actually in any way a sort of like, evidence based approach or derived in any sort of academic way, it’s really more like, how is the term financial independence being phrased or positioned?

When you look at bookshops or, wherever you come across the phrase? I think what I would say, perhaps is the thing that those who advocate financial well being would say is that financial independence oftentimes comes at non financial or psychological opportunity costs, that are often overseen. Right? Be that broken nights, be that fractious family relationships, be that. All those things because of your one sided focus on financial independence, when financial wellbeing would look at it more holistically.

>> Chris Budd: Yeah. I can give one live example or r1 example of a guy was advising once when I was a financial planner years ago, who had achieved financial independence and described himself as bereft because, nobody, I was very new to being his financial planner. but his previous wealth manager and accountant had never asked him what’s the money for? M so he finally got to having enough money to do anything he wanted and had never spent any time thinking about what he wanted to do and now he was stuck. So that would be a live example of the difference. Ah, so we’ve established a problem that we’re all living way longer and it’s all unearning times. We’ve got to make trade offs now. We’re not built for it. We’ve got to understand what financial independence means.

Aegon helps advisors and planners with, uh, about financial wellbeing

But let’s now finish off by saying, well, how can we help people? Now I’ve got one obvious answer, which is use a financial planner who uses cash flow forecasting. Cash flow forecasting is a way of creating a picture to the future. Yes, that’s one thing to do, but Aegon’s got loads of stuff that you help advisors and planners with, about financial wellbeing. So what sort of tools have you got that people can?

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, sure. So we have tools, we have content and we have of course, thoughts. A lot of you know, the stuff that we do clusters around that notion of the wellbeing maximizer. So we contrast the wellbeing maximizer with a performance maximizer. And that goes back to what he did actually.

>> Chris Budd: The advice. The advice, yeah, exactly.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: At advice firms. Exactly. Financial planners, financial advisors, who transition from performance maximisation to well being maximisation and performance maximisation, that’s your classic alpha. It’s all about performance of the policy portfolio versus the benchmark portfolio. It’s about asset allocations, about costs, it’s about that sort of stuff. And well being maximizer is a type of advisor, a type of planner who has the same functional and technical skill set as a performance maximizer, but who has also a much more human centric lens. So someone who understands that really the reason to seek financial advice or financial planner is because there are deeper well being or emotional, goals or motives, underlying them. And that wellbeing maximizer would be the type of advisor who would be seeking to understand that. Right. And who has different conversations. What type of conversations? That’s the sort of stuff that we are talking a lot about.

So questions you can ask. Questions you can ask when, meeting a client first time, when meeting a prospect, questions to ask alongside giving recommendations, questions to ask, in a client review meeting, etcetera, so as to permanently get to know the client better and make sure that their financial plan aligns with deeper intrinsic motivations. that’s quite a banal, or not banal, but not a sort of like, technically advanced way of how we support financial advisors.

The other, and this will be a bit more technically advanced, is the future self tool that I already mentioned, which is all about helping people, get that connection, create that connection to their future self instil, future oriented mindset, and long term thinking by thinking systematically about what way may some dimensions of my future self be. So this isn’t about the money. This is more about who will I be spending time with, where will I live, what will I be doing day in and day out, etcetera. those types of intrinsically motivated things which of course we know are much more likely to, create that vivid connection to your future self, much more than, money planning would.

>> Chris Budd: Brilliant. Brilliant. So if either there’s a financial planner listener who wants to get hold of that, or there’s a client who wants their financial planner to get hold of that, what do they do? Speak to their business development manager, aegon, I presume. Do they?

>> Dr Tom Mathar: Yeah, exactly. That’s right. So we have, a partnership team at Agon. A good way to, start would be to go on our website, perhaps the advisor facing side of our website, and look into the financial wellbeing page. There’s lots of good content, many, webinars, templates, recorded interviews, we have there, etcetera.

>> Chris Budd: Brilliant, doctor d. That’s absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much for joining us.

>> Dr Tom Mathar: It was a joy. Thank you so much for having me, Chris.

>> David Lloyd: Well, what a clever chap doctor Tom is.

Chris: Tom discusses the problem of longevity in today’s podcast

That was really interesting. I like the way you refer to this at the start of the podcast, Chris, about how that refers back to what we were discussing in the last podcast, about the blue zones, where people live longer. And I guess as somebody who is no secret about it, I will next year, I’ll be 70. And so I’m now at the point where I’m actively starting to think more about my retirement than I am about the work that I do. And that also makes me think about, how long have I got? How much money have I got? Tom and I have had many conversations about this. He’s my financial advisor. How do I make that money last long enough? When can I start spending it? All of those things?

And I like the way in which he presents that argument, which is, you know, the problem of longevity. And it is a problem that our parents generation didn’t necessarily have to deal with, and as he said, very aptly, you know, who lives longer, needs more money, and we all want to live longer, but we still have a finite amount of money in which we, have to fund our lifestyle, I guess.

>> Chris Budd: Yeah, I saw a survey recently, asking people in there, I think, about 60 years old, of what are the things that worry them most? And something like a third of them said, how are they going to be able to pay for care home fees? We don’t look after our old people very well in this country, if I’m absolutely honest. And we’re kind of on our own, and it needs to be one of the big changes over the next 10, 15, 20 years. But we are on our own by and large. And, this is a very new problem for humanity. You know, we’re just not built to be thinking this way. So, yeah, it’s a really interesting area that he talks about.

>> David Lloyd: Again, linking it back to the, Blue Zones podcast. The last one of the benchmarks of people that live longer was having their parents around, their aged parents around, and keeping them close and looking after them. And something I’ve thought about a lot recently, this notion of, you know, we tend to shunt our old people into care homes now when they become a little bit too difficult to look after. And therefore we then have an expectation, I think, and a dread that that might certainly something that I absolutely am terrified of. I don’t want to end up bringing in a care home. You know, I’d rather somebody gave me a firm tap on the head and said goodbye. and so without getting too morbid.

>> Chris Budd: About, it, we have that recorded. David, by the way.

>> David Lloyd: It’s all right, Mike, but, you know, my son comes around with a hammer every time he comes to visit.

>> Producer Tommo: Do you mind if I chime in?

Tom says you need a healthy older generation for younger generations to look after elderly

Anyhow, I’ve got a few points, so I’d love to make all the interview, but also your points about how we shunt the elderly off into care homes and relating it to the blue zones. Don’t forget the blue zones. We’re all living healthy older m ages, so there’s a combination here that you need to be. You need a healthier older generation for those younger generations to be able to look after them, because a lot of the time people put in care, because the younger generation don’t have the capability. Yeah, exactly. So I think there’s various parts to that. Sort of not going to, chastise people who put their older relatives into care for that reason. But, in terms of what doctor Tom was saying, a couple of things jumped out at me.

Firstly, was this talk about financial independence versus financial well being. I love the point that you made that financial independence is such an outcome focused strategy, whereas financial well being almost feels like the journey itself, because you see a lot about financial independence in that movement. That’s great, but kind of missing the point of the life that’s going on in the meantime and the life that you’re going to have afterwards. So, yeah, that jumped out at me.

But also for the financial planners, advisors, whatever you want to call yourself, listening to that, are you a performance maximizer? Are you focused on the advice part? The products, the investments, the tax, the planning, all very important to get right. And I certainly see myself as a performance maximizer, but also a, well being maximizer. Add that extra layer and have those human centric conversations that Tom was talking about, and all of a sudden you’re linking what you’re trying to do on the performance side to what somebody’s actually trying to achieve from their life. And it can be very powerful and selfishly a far more enjoyable way to make a living.

>> Chris Budd: And I’ve actually, Doctor Tom did some research on this, about two years ago, and the statistics are really interesting about how much better for your business it is to be a well being maximizer. The client referrals, longevity of clients, this kind of stuff, as well as being, and that’s the key bit, Tom, isn’t it a much more fun way of doing the job?

>> Producer Tommo: It is, it is. And also, let’s not forget why, and trust me, listener, who aren’t in financial services, the main reason why people are still financial advisers and planners is because they really care about the outcomes of the people they serve and look after. And the well being maximizer, absolutely, in my belief, will deliver better outcomes for the people that they look after. And that can only be a good thing.

Thanks to doctor Tom for a fascinating, uh, chat with Chris

>> David Lloyd: Well, on that very positive and very, very true note, I think we should wind things up. So thanks guys for your contributions and your thoughts, as ever. Thanks to doctor Tom for a fascinating, chat with Chris. And thanks to you listeners for listening. And I hope you’ll join us again at some indeterminate point in the future for another one of our financial well being podcasts.