What If Your Financial Goals Are Wrong?

In this episode, the guys ask a deceptively simple question: Are the goals we are working towards actually likely to make us happier?

Along the way, there is a tenth anniversary, free museums, homemade kitchen islands, unrealistic sporting ambitions and an important conversation about the difference between accumulating money and using it to support a meaningful life.

 

Welcomes and Introductions

Chris Budd – Reflects on the tenth anniversary of The Financial Wellbeing Book and the impact its ideas have had since publication.

Tom Morris – Managing Director of Ovation Finance. Award winning, Bristol-based, chartered, B-Corp certified and employee-owned.

Fancy a chat with Tom Morris and the team at Ovation? Contact details here

 

Tight Ass Tommo

Featuring free museums, YouTube tutorials and reusing old parts of your house in DIY projects.

 

Are Your Goals Making You Happier?

Setting objectives is generally seen as good advice.

Financial plans need goals. Athletes work towards targets. Businesses need direction.

People who focused mainly on financial success reported lower life satisfaction over time. Goals connected to relationships, helping others and social involvement were more likely to improve wellbeing.

That does not mean wanting a comfortable home, financial security or nice possessions is wrong.

It means those goals need to sit alongside the things that give life meaning.

 

Goals and Motivations

Tom explains the difference between a goal and a motivation.

A goal usually has an endpoint, such as retiring at a certain age, buying a house or completing a qualification.

A motivation is often ongoing. It might involve creativity, purpose, pride or helping others.

Some motivations are intrinsic, meaning we pursue them because they matter to us. Others are extrinsic, meaning we pursue them to impress or please someone else.

Understanding the difference can help us decide whether an objective genuinely belongs to us.

 

The Cost of the Wrong Objective

Imagine working longer hours for years to buy a bigger house, only to realise that the original house was perfectly adequate.

The financial target has been achieved, but the cost may have been time with family, friendships or neglected interests.

A goal can be financially successful and still fail to improve your life.

 

Are Your Goals Achievable?

Dreams have value, but our happiness should not depend entirely on something unrealistic.

The episode recalls Olympic diver Leon Taylor, who became so focused on winning a medal that the goal caused stress and unhappiness. Once he refocused on his love of diving, he performed at his best and won an Olympic silver medal.

The lesson is not to stop stretching yourself. It is to find the right balance between ambition, enjoyment and reality.

 

Three Questions to Review Your Goals

The team suggests asking yourself:

• When do you feel most excited and energised?
• Who or what do you want to make a difference to?
• How do you want to help?

Your answers may point towards family, creativity, community, charitable work, learning, teamwork or simply having more time available.

You do not need one grand life purpose. Something purposeful is enough.

 

Where Financial Planning Helps

Many people assume they need more money than they actually do to feel secure.

They continue saving and delaying the things they want to do because they are unsure what is possible.

Cashflow planning can help test different ideas.

Could you reduce your working hours? Retire earlier? Help your children now? Travel more? Return to an old hobby?

A good financial plan does not simply tell you how much money you have.

It helps you understand what that money can make possible.

 

Final Thoughts

Everybody has a financial plan, even if it has never been written down.

The important question is whether that plan is leading towards something meaningful.

Review your objectives and ask:

If I achieve these goals, what will actually be better about my life?

If the answer is unclear, it may be time to discuss them with your Financial Planner.

 

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Episode Transcribe:

Welcome and Introductions

David Lloyd: Welcome to another one in our long-running series of financial wellbeing podcasts. My name is David Lloyd. I am the sort of, well, co-host of the podcast. I’m the voice of reason, the voice of experience. Sometimes the person that doesn’t necessarily know an awful lot about money, but knows quite a lot about life. However, to help me guide you through this podcast, then I’ve got two people that know a lot about life, but know even more about money. And one of those is Chris Budd. The other one is Tom Morris. Chris, why don’t you tell us about yourself first? Morning, David. So this week’s quite a big week in some ways,

Chris Budd: about yourself first? Morning, David. So this week’s quite a big week in some ways, because this week is the 10th anniversary of the publication of the Financial Wellbeing book. Get out of here. Ten years. I know. How old are we? So, yeah, it kind of got me reminiscing a little bit to the summer where I took some time off work. Well, OK, I was told by my colleagues to take some time off work. And I spent it researching the relationship between money and happiness, came up with a Financial Wellbeing book, and the impact it’s had on my life, and I will humbly say lots of other people’s lives, is absolutely incredible.

David Lloyd: You don’t need to be humble about it, Chris. It’s absolutely true that it has. We know anecdotally, and we know from the book sales, and I know from people I’ve spoken to who have read the book. But it’s been hugely influential. And it’s been influential on me as well. I found out of all the books about money that I’ve read, which is two, both of the ones that you’ve read. But I found that the reason that is, is because I was actually able to read it. You know, I didn’t get to page three and go, I haven’t got a clue what this person’s talking about. Your book is very open and very approachable and a very useful book. I just wanted to say that. That’s very kind of you, David. It just goes to show that being simple sometimes has its benefits. It certainly does where I’m concerned. Anyway, so Tom Morris, who are you? Managing Director and Chartered Financial Planner

Chris Budd: approachable and a very useful book. I just wanted to say that. That’s very kind of you, David. It just goes to show that being simple sometimes has its benefits. It certainly does where I’m

David Lloyd: just goes to show that being simple sometimes has its benefits. It certainly does where I’m concerned. Anyway, so Tom Morris, who are you? Managing Director and Chartered Financial Planner

Tom Morris: concerned. Anyway, so Tom Morris, who are you? Managing Director and Chartered Financial Planner over at Ovation Finance, who support this podcast and have done. We’ve been going on for about the same amount of time as the book was released. I think this podcast wouldn’t exist without the book, Chris. This is all, yeah, it’s all full circle. Yeah, we’re an independent firm, help people with their financial planning, help a lot of people who are trying to work through. various marks in their life, particularly around transitions and all of the various emotions and complications that come up about that and help them try. And I think we’re going to go on to it today, helping people try and figure out what they want their life to look like. And I’ll bookend it to say that we are proudly employee owned and B Corp certified. So yeah, things that we’re very proud of. Excellent. And you have every right to be proud as well. I was

David Lloyd: things that we’re very proud of. Excellent. And you have every right to be proud as well. I was just very nice to Chris, so I’m going to be very nice to you as well, Tom. Full disclosure for our listeners, you are my financial advisor. You give me very good advice, and I feel very well supported by you and indeed by Ovation Finance. I’m not being paid to say this while I’m being paid. But not really to say that. I’m just being paid to be honest. And that’s my honest opinion. Right, OK. That’s enough of all that flannel. Before we get on, I think Tom has just given us a little bit of a hint about what we’re going to discuss today. But before we move on to it, obviously, we’ve got to come to the most important thing of all, which is this week’s tight-ass Tomo tip. Now, Tom Morris, not only being B Corp certified and a managing director and all of that stuff, he’s also one of the meanest men in Britain. And he’s very, very happy to share his advice on how you can economise by being tight with your cash, which is where the term tight-ass Tom obviously has come from. So before I come on to Tom, to the master himself, Chris,

This Week’s Tight-Ass Tomo Tips

David Lloyd: obviously has come from. So before I come on to Tom, to the master himself, Chris, have you got a tip to share with us this week? Yeah, I have, actually. Myself and my wife Susie,

Chris Budd: have you got a tip to share with us this week? Yeah, I have, actually. Myself and my wife Susie, we do like a trip, a little city break, a little go after, whether it’s abroad or a lot of time in the UK. We’ve just been to Liverpool. We had a fantastic time in Liverpool. Loved it. And we go to London quite often. Being from Bristol, it’s quite easy. And it can get very expensive if you’re not careful. going to all the different lovely, interesting places with a high entrance fee potentially. But every once in a while, you come across something that’s free. And we took some friends of ours to a place called the Wallace Collection. This is… got a big house just off Marlebone High Street, Manchester Square, to be precise. And it’s just full of stuff this Victorian rich bloke collected as he went around the world. And there’s loads of armour, samurai armour. There’s loads of paintings. There’s Marie Antoinette furniture. You just spend two hours in there without noticing, you know, and it’s all free. So there’s obviously loads of other places that one can think of, galleries, etc. But I particularly wanted to mention that one because the friends we took were so impressed with it. We had a lovely couple of hours in there. Good advice. I’m a big fan of a free

David Lloyd: impressed with it. We had a lovely couple of hours in there. Good advice. I’m a big fan of a free gallery and I like to visit them myself. And just as a side issue from that… Have you ever been to the Pitt Rivers Museum in Oxford? Oh, it’s extraordinary, isn’t it? You have to pay to get in there. But again, that is the collection of this guy that just travelled around the world in Victorian times and brought back all sorts of amazing stuff. But that’s probably not part of this because you have to pay for it. But I just thought I’d mention it anyway. Anyway, good advice there. If you can find an art gallery or anything like that museum, they usually, well, they often are free. Anyway, particularly the ones in the smaller cities. So take advantage of that and go and see. right on to you tom what have you got for us today yeah this one was it was actually shared

Tom Morris: see. right on to you tom what have you got for us today yeah this one was it was actually shared with me by a client i was sat with the other day and it’s not anything particularly special i just was really proud of the fact that he listens to our podcast and is really keen on it and was very proud to let me know about him being a tight ass And I’m not sure that was quite what the message of this podcast is about, as I’m trying to get them to encourage them to spend money. But he really enjoys making things and getting his tools out. And they’ve just been updating their kitchen. And with the units they had, he said, oh, no, no, don’t throw them all away. I’m going to make the kitchen island out of… the old kitchen unit so that’s his project and he said you’ll be very proud tom i’ve saved some money on it i’ve really enjoyed the project doing it but yeah see i told you i listened to the podcast tom so yeah anyway that’s just a little anecdote of a meeting i sat down and yeah it’s we’re listened to apparently which is great yeah no we’re listened to by quite a lot of people

David Lloyd: it’s we’re listened to apparently which is great yeah no we’re listened to by quite a lot of people actually and it’s all very gratifying and we’ve been doing this for How long now? Well, I guess it must be for 10 years. If the book was 10 years ago, I guess we must have been doing this for something approaching that. We are indeed. There we go. A decade in. Excellent. Right. Fantastic. Thanks for that, Tom. Very, very useful tip as ever. Only if you’re any good with tools, of course. If I had to make a kitchen island out of it, no, I just wouldn’t be allowed anywhere near it. No, I wouldn’t either, and I wouldn’t want to be the first person to put a hot pan on top of the whole thing. So, yes, only a useful tip if you’re skilled and you actually want to spend the time doing it.

Chris Budd: Well, that’s an interesting question, though, isn’t it? Because if you make something and it’s rubbish, but you enjoy making it, that’s still valid, isn’t it? Well, as long as it’s safe, yeah. And interestingly, I have always been… always been a bodger i can do stuff but not necessarily to a very high high spec finish but i can get things done i can fix things but what i found recently two things one is i’ve got a bit more time because i’m mainly retired now So I’ve got time to kind of think about stuff and do stuff. I’m not rushing at it. But also the rise now in YouTube videos and also AI, which will really give you detailed information about how you can fix things. And I’ve got a lot more ambitious now with some of the stuff that I do. And I’m still alive to tell the tale. So that’s another, all right, I said I didn’t have a tight ass tip, but in fact, I’ve just got one now, which is avail yourself of all the free resources that are out there, YouTube channels and videos and AI to help you get advice so that you too could build your own kitchen island. Can I just pursue this just for a second? Because this is very relevant to what

David Lloyd: kitchen island. Can I just pursue this just for a second? Because this is very relevant to what we’re going to talk about, because I’m just trying to think of the things that I do in life that I’m not particularly good at, which is quite a lot of them. And I’ll choose playing the guitar, right? Now, I like to say that I’m as good a guitarist as Eric Clapton is a singer, right? Now, Eric Clapton’s an okay singer, and I’m an okay guitarist, but I’m not particularly brilliant. Good enough to play in a band for years, but you wouldn’t ever stand there and watch me, you know. Now, I have had enormous enjoyment from playing the guitar not particularly brilliantly. So I’m going to just put one out there, put up a flag for all of those of us who do things not very well but still enjoy them. You mean like our goal for our whole sporting experience?

Chris Budd: well but still enjoy them. You mean like our goal for our whole sporting experience? Exactly. I’ve had huge enjoyment out of listening to you playing the guitar not very well as well. Thank you. Brilliant. Right, okay, we need to move on now. Right, Chris, you’re never a man who’s

Tom Morris: Thank you. Brilliant. Right, okay, we need to move on now. Right, Chris, you’re never a man who’s short of an opinion. But it seems to me like you might have something on your mind for this

David Lloyd: short of an opinion. But it seems to me like you might have something on your mind for this episode. Well, I do. I do. I want to talk about objectives, and in particular people having objectives in life that might actually be making them unhappy. I was reading some research,

Can Life Objectives Make Us Unhappy?

Chris Budd: objectives in life that might actually be making them unhappy. I was reading some research, and it kind of got this into my mind. And as it happened, I then met this really lovely guy who runs training courses for people who work in sporting bodies, so people who support elite sports people. He sounds interesting. He’s really interesting. He was a sports psychologist himself. Actually, he has a background in finance. I’m interviewing him next week for the podcast. So you’ll be hearing more from him. Listen out for Steve Johnson. And I mention it because he uses the financial wellbeing book as part of his training program. So our approach to money, being about the human side first and foremost, very much aligns with their training program. So they go about helping elite sports people. I love that. I love the reach and the impact. That’s the whole point of why we do this, is just trying to just spread the word a bit more and more. And he’s obviously going to be able to spread it to more and more people. Does he use the five pillars of financial wellbeing and what he does? Yeah, yeah, he does.

David Lloyd: Does he use the five pillars of financial wellbeing and what he does? Yeah, yeah, he does. He bases it on the material from the first book, yeah. Right. Now, one of my jobs on this podcast is to try and bring things back when they start rambling off in diverse directions. Although, to be honest, I’m often the man that takes them off in those directions. However, it does occur to me, you mentioned the five pillars of financial wellbeing, and I know it’s something we’ve talked about a lot on the podcast, but not for a while, I don’t think. So perhaps we should remind our listeners of them as they are the starting point for this whole thing. So I’m going to go first, if I may. It’s really important for wellbeing to feel that we are in control of our daily finances.

Chris Budd: Indeed, David. And I say next is the ability to cope with financial shocks. And if we think about the control of daily finances, a lot around budgeting as well, and coping with shocks together, I would call that financial resilience rather than the financial wellbeing as a whole. A lot of financial wellbeing education tends to focus on those two, and they’re very important. but it tends to focus on what I would describe as financial resilience. So I’m loving the fact that Steve’s course looks at the wider financial wellbeing piece.

David Lloyd: So that’s two. Then we have financial options, which I’ve always found an interesting one because it’s a bit harder to define. For me, it’s about having more options with our money than perhaps we realise and making sure that we choose the options that lead to wellbeing. Yeah, very good. Number four, clarity and security for those that we leave behind. Make a will. I’ve done it. I’ve got one.

Tom Morris: And then finally, there’s the one that this podcast is really all about, which is having a clear path to identifiable objectives. I think which is one of the ways of describing the financial planning we do at Ovation. So we include some cash flow forecasting so that you can better. envisage your future and explore the various possibilities that that might have love it so chris

David Lloyd: envisage your future and explore the various possibilities that that might have love it so chris what is it about that clear path to identifiable objectives that you want to explore today So if

Chris Budd: what is it about that clear path to identifiable objectives that you want to explore today So if you look at the many self-help books there are around, and also the sort of self-improvement gurus you see all the time on social media and places like LinkedIn, they always talk about the importance of having goals and having life objectives. And I was reading this research the other day, which particularly brought this to mind, as it questioned whether our choice of life objectives is actually making us happier. Right. So I think I’m going to have some views on this

David Lloyd: objectives is actually making us happier. Right. So I think I’m going to have some views on this topic as well, Chris. So the three of us have all got kids. If you ask any parent what they want from their kids when they grow up, we’ll basically all say the same thing. As long as they’re happy, that’s what really matters. Yeah, absolutely. And yet, as soon as our children grow up and go out to the world and come in contact with the realities of the world, and in particular money, that simple objective just starts to get really complicated, doesn’t it? Yeah,

Tom Morris: yeah, it does. I’ve got skin in the game on two fronts there as a parent. as somebody who helps people figure this out, that every financial plan needs an objective. And we talk with clients a lot about objectives and what they are. You do. As a client, I can vouch for that.

David Lloyd: lot about objectives and what they are. You do. As a client, I can vouch for that. So perhaps maybe we should set the scene by clarifying exactly what we mean by a life objective. Yeah, good idea. So it kind of sounds obvious, doesn’t it? Things we want to do in life. But when you dig into it, it’s actually quite nuanced, I think. I like that. Right then, Tomo, since this is something you get into with your clients, why don’t you lead us through it? First, I think it’s

Goals, Motivations and Meaning

Tom Morris: something you get into with your clients, why don’t you lead us through it? First, I think it’s worthwhile as distinguishing between the two different types of objectives. We’ve got what we might call goals and then what we might call motivations. Now, a goal is typically something that you can complete. It’s quite specific. It’s got an end point. It might be a bucket list of things that somebody’s always wanted to do. places they want to go it could be an exam they’re looking to to finish a qualification getting on the housing ladder buying a certain car and so on very finite once you get there tick the box a motivation however it’s something that might be ongoing might be something that’s creative a sense of pride involved in that intrinsic motivations albert

David Lloyd: There you go. So you actually listen as well as host. Yeah, and I’ve read the book. I’ve told you, I’ve read the book. Yeah, well done. Yeah, look, we talked about this many times in

Chris Budd: I’ve told you, I’ve read the book. Yeah, well done. Yeah, look, we talked about this many times in previous episodes, but I have no issue with going over old ground because I think this is really important. Look, some motivations we do for ourselves, they’re what we call intrinsic motivations, ones which we don’t really know why we want to do them. But we just do. You know, they tend to bring out a sense of pride, a sense of purpose. As opposed to an extrinsic motivation, which you do to please or impress somebody else. Do you know what? I’m not sure we’ve quite nailed

David Lloyd: which you do to please or impress somebody else. Do you know what? I’m not sure we’ve quite nailed the breadth of psychology on this subject, but I think that’s a pretty decent overview you’ve just given. OK, so, Chris, I think it’s pretty uncontroversial to suggest that having goals and objectives in life is important. Yeah, yeah, it’s fairly standard advice. It’s good advice.

Chris Budd: objectives in life is important. Yeah, yeah, it’s fairly standard advice. It’s good advice. Whether you’re setting a business plan, those athletes setting goals and targets, trying to achieve career milestones, you’ve just got to Google, is setting life objectives a good idea? You’ll get a long list of psychology and self-help guru websites giving reasons why it is. So yeah, setting a life objective and setting goals, most certainly a good idea. No argument there. Great, that’s

David Lloyd: life objective and setting goals, most certainly a good idea. No argument there. Great, that’s sorted there. So thank you for listening to another in our long-running series of financial wellbeing podcasts. Well, not quite, because there is a but. Yeah, but I’ve got to go mow the lawn. I knew there would be something, Chris. You said you’d read something that got you thinking about this. So what was it? It was a research paper from 2007 by a

Chris Budd: something that got you thinking about this. So what was it? It was a research paper from 2007 by a chap called Bruce Headley. from the German Institute for Economic Research, all about set point theory. And it looks at the limitations of set point theory. Now, you’ve talked about set point theory a lot over the last 10 years. Now, don’t tell me it turns out that it was wrong all the time. Well, Bruce certainly seems to think so. Actually, to be fair, his criticisms are very interesting, that the set point isn’t really set, but that it can be changed. I base my stuff on set point theory from a book by Sonia Leobomirsky, who agrees that the set point can be changed. So I think some of his criticisms from that paper in 2007, I think they’re fair enough, to be honest. OK, so well, let’s leave set point theory for the moment and tell us what points Bruce makes about life objectives. OK, so clearly, if you’re setting objectives, it means that you’re focusing your life activities on certain types of things. So if you set an objective to run a marathon, you’ll spend more time running than if you, say, set your objective to be a rock star. So Bruce refers to some other research which starts with an assumption that there are three types of life goals, okay? Those three types of life goals, according to this other research, is success, so typically career success, material gains, family life, happily married, having children, et cetera, and then altruism. So that’s friendship or helping others, social and political activism. So I’d just like to

David Lloyd: So that’s friendship or helping others, social and political activism. So I’d just like to challenge that a little bit, if I may. Can all the different life goals that there are really fit into those categories? Yeah, I think that’s fair. Probably not. There are certainly other ways you could categorise life’s goals. This just happens to be the one that this study used. Yeah, but what about creativity, which is clearly a big thing with me? That doesn’t fit into success, family life, altruism. Is that a life goal or just something you enjoy doing? Oh, good question, to which I’m not sure I know the answer, so I’m going to agree with you. Always

Chris Budd: Oh, good question, to which I’m not sure I know the answer, so I’m going to agree with you. Always best. I did have the same thought, David. So, for example, the one he says family, which is happy marriage and children, I’m pretty sure you can expand that to social contact, social relationships, and the fact that creativity isn’t in there. It’s a very good point. So I was wondering about that as well. And I did a little research before this by asking Tomo and the other Ovation advisors for typical goals and objectives that their clients state for their financial plans. You do get a lot of specific target type goals, such as retiring at a certain age. A lot of people say they want to travel more, help their children. But I did ask our advisors if they could give some specific examples. as well and here’s here’s some of what they said learning to the goal of learning to fly airplanes was one so that one was quite niche going back to this one is quite common is it was going back to a time-consuming hobby something that they gave up perhaps when life got busy and they had children and life’s responsibilities kicked in another one was a building a driving range in their back garden what a golf driving range yeah You’d need a big

David Lloyd: building a driving range in their back garden what a golf driving range yeah You’d need a big garden for that, wouldn’t you? I know. I’ve got a feeling they might have meant golf simulator, you know, one of these, like, huts. I know. I’ve seen those recently. You can get those, like, golf huts where they put in a big screen and you can go in there and play the open on your own. Oh, God. Honestly, that’s the dream. I’ve got to interject there. No, playing the dream is just having a nice game of golf with your friends because social contact is the biggest part of all. Oh, yeah. Okay. But then in order to be good, also play a well… Anyway, we could go down a whole rabbit hole. That’s back to my point earlier. Are you playing golf to win the Open or are you doing it to… Yeah. Okay. But there were some other ones that… So those were sort of fairly common-ish.

Chris Budd: to… Yeah. Okay. But there were some other ones that… So those were sort of fairly common-ish. Well, not common, but they didn’t have huge amounts of motive nature to them. But then there were a few that… have an emotive link. And one was buying a home that would secure a childhood learning disabilities future. Wow, that was quite powerful. A lot around charitable giving and causes that mean something to them. And there was somebody I worked with who was working a corporate job and wanted to start a university course and get back into their passion of music. So there are a few examples of some specific goals they’re trying to get to. Yeah,

David Lloyd: So there are a few examples of some specific goals they’re trying to get to. Yeah, I think I’m trying to apply that to myself as somebody who is now retired. I think I had fixed an idea about when I might want to retire, but actually having done it, I got a bit bored. And so I’m still always on the lookout for the occasional work opportunity, providing it pays well and providing it. It doesn’t take up too much of my time. The specific ambitions as well, helping children, obviously, that’s something that’s very important to me. Learning to fly an aeroplane, I don’t think so, but certainly go back to a hobby that I had to give up. Well, I used to play a lot of golf, and then really over the last 30 years, for different reasons, I wasn’t playing that much at all. So I’ve gone back to doing that now. probably brings us back to building the golf driving range in the background. And also for me. Is it you that built the driving range? And I’m learning to play the piano. And I started three years ago and I’m doing my grade two now. And it’s very, very slow progress. But I’m absolutely loving it. For years and years and years, I used to say to people, I wish I could play the piano. And in the end, Gail said to me, well, you keep saying that, why don’t you learn? And I thought, oh yeah, I’ve got a bit of time to do that now, so I can. So yeah, there’s lots of those things out there. And a lot of those fit into family life and altruism. Although from those you’ve listed, Tomo, I think we could add something around creativity and leisure. I’d love to be able to do that. So what did the researchers do next, Chris?

What the Research Found

Chris Budd: OK, so they looked at whether people who focused on each of those different categories of objective reported an increase or a decrease in their wellbeing. Aha, I see your game,

David Lloyd: reported an increase or a decrease in their wellbeing. Aha, I see your game, Mr Bond. I bet that when you read that research article, you were really hoping that family and altruism increased wellbeing more than financial success. Come on, admit it, you were, weren’t you? Damn right I was. Absolutely. You know I’m only going to present research on here that fits my narrative. Crikey. So did it? Well, it was even better than that. They found that people who

Chris Budd: narrative. Crikey. So did it? Well, it was even better than that. They found that people who pursued life goals and objectives that were linked to financial success actually reported lower life satisfaction over time. Whereas people who pursued life goals and objectives aimed at helping others reported increased life satisfaction. And those who produced… I believe social type life goals reported the highest increases in life satisfaction. Social well

Tom Morris: I believe social type life goals reported the highest increases in life satisfaction. Social well -being, folks. We’ve talked about it enough, social interactions or being involved in the community. I love it, mainly because I’m like Chris. I’m delighted that this was the result of the research going, saying the message. So the examples of ovation client objectives would seem to be ones that would increase their wellbeing. So that’s good news. Yeah,

David Lloyd: but to be fair, given the nature of the work that Ovation does, I can’t imagine that they have too many clients who have objectives based solely on wealth and status. I think it’s fair to say anybody who’s listened to our podcast and our marketing material would know that Ovation would not be the right company to go to for that. We get our first point. If our life objectives are all

Chris Budd: be the right company to go to for that. We get our first point. If our life objectives are all based around some form of material success, such as achieving a certain amount of money or working hard to get a bigger house, then achieving these objectives might actually lead to you being less happy.

David Lloyd: That’s interesting. I wonder why this is. I wonder whether there’s an element of disappointment factor. Take somebody who lives in a house that is big enough for their means. Then they work hard, make sacrifices and eventually is able to buy a bigger house. Maybe that’s what they assume they’re meant to be doing is buying a bigger house. For whatever reason, that’s what they’re driven to. And they might experience regret when they realise they didn’t actually need that bigger house. And they look back on the time that they’ve spent in the office and working and trying to save for that money and the sacrifices they made. Well, actually, they’ve just been spending more time with their family or doing the things they love doing. OK, so two objectives that are more linked to family and altruism than to success. Got it, I think. Although people don’t tend to have just one objective, do they? No, that’s a very good point. So I think it’s important here to do what we

Chris Budd: objective, do they? No, that’s a very good point. So I think it’s important here to do what we regularly try and do, which is a sense check and reiterate that we are not being patronising and saying that wanting nice things is bad. But it’s about a balance in life, right? For those people who do have a financial plan, and let’s be honest, everybody has a financial plan, even if it isn’t written down. You’ve got a plan of some sort. It’s worth just reviewing that list of objectives to make sure that you have that healthy balance between those three different types. And let’s call it four with your creativity and leisure added in as well. Thank you for that, Chris, and sensible advice as ever. Now, is there anything more to be said about objectives? Well, having seen this piece of research, I carried on digging. And there are a couple more aspects of life objectives that determine whether they make us happy or not. And one of them is whether they are achievable.

Dreams, Stretch Targets and Achievability

David Lloyd: Yeah, I mean, that’s very true. That resonates with me as well. I mean, I’ve spent over 40 years as a writer, and one of my big ambitions is to have my own series on the television. And actually, recently, I’ve been writing a script that… know, people have been sniffing around and there’s been the possibility that that might actually happen. However, life experience and reality and statistics tell me that although it could happen, and I very much hope it does, realistically, it’s probably more of a dream than it is an objective. Yeah, I think it’s probably for you more than anybody else. It’s a possibility, David, isn’t it? But I still plan to release an album and take it on tour with a crack band of session musicians. I’ve got absolutely no chance of that ever happening. Tom, have you got a dream you unrealistically cling to? Now that my rugby

Tom Morris: that ever happening. Tom, have you got a dream you unrealistically cling to? Now that my rugby playing days are over, because that dream has definitely gone of being an elite level rugby player, I think I’ll be broken in about five minutes. I do enjoy, I’m still a competitive soul. And golf is the one for me because I can pick and choose when I play around family life. And now I’ve got just this every now and again, it’s completely unrealistic. You imagine, imagine if I was good enough to be out on tour or to be in a Ryder Cup team and enjoy playing at that elite level and what it must be like to be able to play the way they do under that extreme pressure. I don’t know. It’s just, I don’t know whether it’s a dream or just like you drift off. You think, wow, what a feeling that must be. I think we all do that. As a young man, I used to dream that one day I would

David Lloyd: feeling that must be. I think we all do that. As a young man, I used to dream that one day I would be as good a cricketer as Ian Botham, and he was somebody I always looked up to as a sportsman, that one day if I worked hard at my cricket game, I could get the success that he had, and then after a while I realised I’m actually older than Ian Botham, so that probably wasn’t going to happen. Okay, so we’ve got that out of our system. So what’s wrong with having some stretch targets, Chris? Just on Tombo’s Ryder Cup, I was just thinking that having young kids,

Chris Budd: targets, Chris? Just on Tombo’s Ryder Cup, I was just thinking that having young kids, your ambition these days is being able to watch the Ryder Cup on telly. I have a dream that I can watch it without being interrupted. Well, sorry, I’m going to just, I’m sorry, but I have to butt

David Lloyd: watch it without being interrupted. Well, sorry, I’m going to just, I’m sorry, but I have to butt in there because I was watching the recent Ryder Cup, not bogged down by young kids, but also, well, not bogged down, but also having to share a house with somebody who is not necessarily the… biggest golf fan but it was the sunday afternoon the final session and i kind of explained the importance of it the setup of it and she would gail was in there she said oh yeah go on well i’ll read the paper i’ll do that within an hour She was completely hooked into the drama of it all. She didn’t really understand a lot of the technical aspects of the golf, but she absolutely got the drama and excitement of it. And if you remember that last Ryder Cup, that last session, the final day was very gripping and very exciting. So, yeah, it can happen. Hang on in there, Tom. Yeah, gripping for all the wrong reasons. I remember the panicked feeling when I thought the

Tom Morris: Yeah, gripping for all the wrong reasons. I remember the panicked feeling when I thought the Americans were going to come back. Anyway, we digress. Yes. So stretch targets, Chris. Stretch targets. So look, our old friend to the podcast, the behavioural psychologist Neil Bage,

David Lloyd: targets. So look, our old friend to the podcast, the behavioural psychologist Neil Bage, did some research once which showed that he found that we feel the loss of something 3.7 times more than the equivalent gain. So that suggests that if we don’t achieve something that we really want to achieve, it’s going to lead us to be unhappy. Oh, you know, that reminds me of that lovely

Chris Budd: want to achieve, it’s going to lead us to be unhappy. Oh, you know, that reminds me of that lovely interview you did with Leon Taylor, the Olympic diver. Yeah, episode number 99. And I know that off the top of my head because it’s my absolute favourite. It’s just brilliant. Yeah, he told us about wanting an Olympic medal so badly it caused him stress and made him unhappy. And then at the third attempt, this coach made him refocus on the things that mattered, which is his love of diving. And then he achieved that incredible silver medal. Yeah, this is an interesting one, actually, because when we talk with clients about setting objectives that we can model through their cash flow planning forecast, which is long term financial forecast, we often have to

David Lloyd: their cash flow planning forecast, which is long term financial forecast, we often have to encourage them to dream a bit. That stretch does come in a little bit. You know, people generally tend to think that they need a lot more money to be secure. than they actually

Tom Morris: people generally tend to think that they need a lot more money to be secure. than they actually need or to do the things that they actually want to do. So they may make sacrifices and put a lot away and don’t actually do the things they really want to do and don’t allow themselves to be stretched to think about these potential objectives. So the planning process helps find that balance. Right, well, time marches on. So as host, I’d like to decide how this episode ends. I would like, please, fellas, some practical suggestions. for how people can find life objectives that will increase, not decrease, their wellbeing. Chris? Okay, I’ve got two suggestions for this. Firstly, I’ve got a bit of research to share for those who really want to get into this subject, and hopefully they will find that interesting. And the

Three Questions for Better Objectives

Chris Budd: really want to get into this subject, and hopefully they will find that interesting. And the second? Something very short. I like the sound of that. Right, let’s get the long one out of the way. Yeah, that’s the spirit. So, I mean, you can just Google how to find life objectives. I did this when I was researching this episode. There are so many articles and suggestions and books. There are quite a lot that are from kind of billionaires, which are kind of more about how to get rich, which I think are probably, as this episode is hopefully demonstrating, could actually make you less happy. But there’s also loads from gurus and psychologists, et cetera. Oh, that sounds rather exhausting. Yeah, yeah, it is. I must admit, I find some of these a little bit pompous, that they’re reaching too high, that they kind of talk about trying to find the meaning of life. Yeah, I mean, I’ve seen some which talk about finding your life’s purpose, as if there is some great epic journey we need to go on to discover our inner selves. Well, going back to what I said earlier in the podcast, don’t read those books, guys. Just read the Financial Wellbeing book. That’s all you need. I used to talk about living a life of meaning and purpose, and I realized that I was doing the same thing that I’m being critical of. So I just changed one word, living a life with meaning and purpose. We’re just talking about making sure you have something purposeful in your life, in your objectives. So looking at those different books and articles, I thought I’d try and summarize three of the main tips, three questions that you could ask yourself when assessing your objectives for your financial plan. Firstly, when do you get most excited and energized? Oh,

David Lloyd: Firstly, when do you get most excited and energized? Oh, when I am doing a piece of work, a piece of writing. that I really, really like, that it’s on a subject that I’m enjoying. And as I’m writing it, I’m going, do you know what? This is good. This is good. That really excites and energizes me. Team competition.

Tom Morris: know what? This is good. This is good. That really excites and energizes me. Team competition. When it’s trying to, I love team golf. I keep going back to this golf thing. I just love trying to, the excitement of trying to achieve something with other people. And I’ve actually tried, I do bring this to my work as well. I think there’s a lot of excitement on. yeah going on a journey with other people to try and yeah achieve things i i get a lot of excitement out of that that’s interesting i i’ve so teams is that that’s a good one i was i’m thinking back to when i

Chris Budd: interesting i i’ve so teams is that that’s a good one i was i’m thinking back to when i was in a meeting when i was still a financial planner with a client and i went through those days i was still going through investment portfolios and explaining pension rules and all the really boring stuff and Then I kind of was on this new topic I was discovering, and I talked a little bit about the financial wellbeing. And after the meeting, the client commented, I was so much more energised when I was talking about wellbeing than I was when I was talking about the money. So that was a big tip for me about where it all moved on to. Okay, second question. Who or what do you want to make a difference to? Oh,

David Lloyd: question. Who or what do you want to make a difference to? Oh, that’s a good question. I think… immediate family, you know, my loved ones, for want of a better word, my son, my partner’s children, my granddaughter. I think those are the people that I feel now that I can help to make a difference in terms of their life. That’s on a personal level. Yeah, I’ll leave it at that, I think. Tombo, you got one?

Tom Morris: That’s on a personal level. Yeah, I’ll leave it at that, I think. Tombo, you got one? Yeah, because I’m still in the middle of my career, I think naturally. my children, because I am at the moment. But they’re going to go one day. They’re going to leave home one day. Oh, they never do. No, they never do. They might leave home, but they never go. If there is something I’m good at that I believe actually makes a difference to people’s lives, I want to be able to get that on as big a platform as possible. And I’m going to use this work that we do at Ovation, this podcast, I go and do talks. within the industry, because I want to get this message out as far and wide as possible, because I believe this makes a difference. Because I share that one, Tom,

Chris Budd: because I believe this makes a difference. Because I share that one, Tom, I’m going to refine that for me, and I’m going to be a bit more candid. I want to make wealthy people realize that they don’t need as much money as they thought they did to be happy. So that’s honest. There’s loads of people out there who already get this stuff who also still find it interesting. But there’s a lot of people out there who are wealthy and think that they need more money to be more happy when actually they don’t. And that’s the societal impact that I’ve really wanted to have with all of this, with the book from 10 years ago and all that kind of stuff. I’ll just offer one other one as well because I think of a friend of mine who retired and she spends five days a week up at six o’clock every morning helping out the local nature trust. So for her, nature is the thing that she wants to make a difference to. So it doesn’t have to be necessarily people. It could be a thing. Okay, third one. How do you want to help? So let me just give an example there. Tommy mentioned team working. It could be I want to work in a

David Lloyd: So let me just give an example there. Tommy mentioned team working. It could be I want to work in a team. I love writing. as is obviously david don’t how do you want to help right okay so if i was applying that to my writing obviously i would help by doing more writing and and writing stuff that i felt was going to have a positive impact on people in terms of the stories that i tell and the way in which i tell them On a personal level, I think it’s doing practical things. Now I’ve got a bit more time. Being a granddad, picking my granddaughter up from nursery every other week so that her parents can work and all of those sort of things. I’m going to help my son spring clean his flat next week. Actually doing those practical things where people are grateful and benefit from. the support that you give them because you’ve maybe got a bit more time. And, you know, I’m in a different stage of my life than you two guys, where I’ve got a bit more time to think about that. And I can perhaps be a little bit more altruistic in terms of how I live my life. Although having said that, there is a kind of, there’s a danger of compassion fatigue that can set in a little bit. sometimes with that you know at the moment we’ve got quite a lot going on in terms of a an ill elderly relative two ill elderly relatives and and you know children and grandchildren and sometimes i kind of sit back and go well it’s great that i’m doing all these things for other people but you know oh hang on a minute when’s it going to be my turn to have a bit of time perhaps just the two of us so that’s why it’s that balance isn’t it it’s about getting the balance right tomo what about you this is a team-based A great team-based example,

Tom Morris: the balance right tomo what about you this is a team-based A great team-based example, the stuff we do at Ovation is a team-based. I talk about shaping young children. My rugby coach and I do with the minis, that’s within a coaching team. So definitely a team vibe. But I think for me and the way that I like to go about it, it’s via conversations. I like to do it via conversation and share insight, wisdom and ideas and hopefully craft. better places out of that nice thank you both of you so

Chris Budd: wisdom and ideas and hopefully craft. better places out of that nice thank you both of you so yeah my suggestion to our listeners if you’ve got life objectives and you do whether you realize it or not review them get them out in the open discuss it with your partner with your friends maybe in fact really good idea to discuss with your financial planner so that your financial plans are actually pointing to something that feels purposeful right Well, that was the longer one of your two points. So to finish off, Chris, what was your quick suggestion? Right. Let’s make this

Practical Takeaways

David Lloyd: are actually pointing to something that feels purposeful right Well, that was the longer one of your two points. So to finish off, Chris, what was your quick suggestion? Right. Let’s make this really quick. Why don’t we offer one suggestion each on how to find something purposeful from our life experiences? Okay. So I want you to each come up. We want to give you a moment to think, let me offer one for me. Since I sold Ovation to an Employee Ownership Trust back in 2018,

Chris Budd: me offer one for me. Since I sold Ovation to an Employee Ownership Trust back in 2018, I’ve had time to reevaluate my life. And one of the best things… was I made the decision to say yes to everything. Well, that’s interesting because the advice we often see is to say no to things a bit more often. Yeah, to be clear, I don’t say literally yes to absolutely everything. Although most things, the advice to say no usually relates to people when they’re busy and stressed. So when you’re thinking about the next phase of life and looking for new and interesting things, saying yes to things opens up new experiences and opportunities. It’s worked for me anyway.

David Lloyd: Okay, yeah, I’ve kind of touched on this already, I think. As a younger man, I spent a lot of time thinking about what I could do for myself, partly because I knew that the more successful I was in terms of the work that I did, the more able I was to help my family. But in the end, probably, if I was entirely honest, a lot of it was about me and how that made me feel. At the stage of life I’m at the moment, I kind of don’t feel that I’ve got anything. to prove to myself anymore. So now it’s been great to spend a bit more time actually consciously thinking about what I could do for other people. I think going through a financial planning process and going

Tom Morris: what I could do for other people. I think going through a financial planning process and going through financial projections and looking longer term at what’s possible really opens your mind to the objectives that you could potentially go down. I think even being able to show that you’ll be okay gives your mind, for some people, gives their mind that security to go off and stretch as we touched on today is just stretching themselves a bit and testing it and seeing if it’s achievable so for me i would say this as a financial planner but it’s such a crucial part and being able to yeah explore and test these different objectives that you might have Fantastic. Thanks for that,

David Lloyd: yeah explore and test these different objectives that you might have Fantastic. Thanks for that, both of you. So we started off doing a review of the five pillars of financial wellbeing and it’s moved us on to what I think has been a really interesting and it’s made me think quite a lot, actually, about a few areas in my life. Really interesting conversation. So as ever, Chris and Tom, thank you very much. And thank you to everybody at home or indeed at work or in the car or wherever you happen to be for joining us in another one of our long-running financial wellbeing podcasts.